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The sickness that is Barack Obama


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#41 TCUSA

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:04 PM

View PostNewfoundlandFrog, on 29 April 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Oh...happened to see a Wapo article by Brookings and American Enterprise Institutes scholars Norman Ornstein and Thomas Mann (i.e., on balance probably somewhat centrist) discussing what is sick and what is not in DC at the present time. They put the blame clearly on extremism from the right labeling the present incumbents "an insurgent outlier party".  I'm sure this will meet with rational and thoughtful discussion here!

Premises:

We have been studying Washington politics and Congress for more than 40 years, and never have we seen them this dysfunctional. In our past writings, we have criticized both parties when we believed it was warranted. Today, however, we have no choice but to acknowledge that the core of the problem lies with the Republican Party.

The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.

...

It is clear that the center of gravity in the Republican Party has shifted sharply to the right. Its once-legendary moderate and center-right legislators in the House and the Senate — think Bob Michel, Mickey Edwards, John Danforth, Chuck Hagel — are virtually extinct.

The post-McGovern Democratic Party, by contrast, while losing the bulk of its conservative Dixiecrat contingent in the decades after the civil rights revolution, has retained a more diverse base. Since the Clinton presidency, it has hewed to the center-left on issues from welfare reform to fiscal policy. While the Democrats may have moved from their 40-yard line to their 25, the Republicans have gone from their 40 to somewhere behind their goal post.

...

Democrats are hardly blameless, and they have their own extreme wing and their own predilection for hardball politics. But these tendencies do not routinely veer outside the normal bounds of robust politics. If anything, under the presidencies of Clinton and Obama, the Democrats have become more of a status-quo party. They are centrist protectors of government, reluctantly willing to revamp programs and trim retirement and health benefits to maintain its central commitments in the face of fiscal pressures.

No doubt, Democrats were not exactly warm and fuzzy toward George W. Bush during his presidency. But recall that they worked hand in glove with the Republican president on the No Child Left Behind Act, provided crucial votes in the Senate for his tax cuts, joined with Republicans for all the steps taken after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and supplied the key votes for the Bush administration’s financial bailout at the height of the economic crisis in 2008. The difference is striking.

Conclusions:

Our advice to the press: Don’t seek professional safety through the even-handed, unfiltered presentation of opposing views. Which politician is telling the truth? Who is taking hostages, at what risks and to what ends?

...

Report individual senators’ abusive use of holds and identify every time the minority party uses a filibuster to kill a bill or nomination with majority support.

...

In the end, while the press can make certain political choices understandable, it is up to voters to decide. If they can punish ideological extremism at the polls and look skeptically upon candidates who profess to reject all dialogue and bargaining with opponents, then an insurgent outlier party will have some impetus to return to the center...

Anyway, thought provoking piece IMO. The trouble is, I truly doubt it will provoke much, if any, real thought. For my part, I have been concerned for some time over one notion they throw out but then don't explore more deeply: To my way of thinking, the drive to delegitimize the opposition is a seriously bad drive fraught with extremely negative possibilities.

Oh yeah--the Republicans are radical rightwingers these days--that's why they wiped the floor with the Dems in 2010.  And tell me, professor--who has tried to "delegitimize" who, these days?  The President of the United States has worked overtime demonizing bankers, oil and gas companies, Wall Street types, those making over any convenient sum he finds useful at the time, Americans who are against higher taxes and throwing good money after bad in our bloated, inefficient bureaucracy, the Koch brothers, Rush Limbaugh--hell, if you're not on the dole, belong to a union, work in academia or work for the government, you've been chastised and criticized at one time or another for not buying into Obama's simplistic, redistributionist, socialist view of America's future.
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#42 NewfoundlandFrog

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

View Postgohornedfrogs, on 29 April 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Use the board search function. I've made fun of the people challenging Obamas citizenship on many occasions. As well as many other kooky posts. Remember fn and others accusing me of being a liberal for attacking their nutty rants?

Victim? Nice attempt at projection.

And show me the innuendo and lies I've posted on here.

You've gone off the rails...
Actually, if you read what I wrote, I in no way accuse you of what you say. I don't know where you got that, actually, it would seem to me to take a real will to misunderstand.
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#43 NewfoundlandFrog

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:36 PM

View PostTCUSA, on 29 April 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Oh yeah--the Republicans are radical rightwingers these days--that's why they wiped the floor with the Dems in 2010.  And tell me, professor--who has tried to "delegitimize" who, these days?  The President of the United States has worked overtime demonizing bankers, oil and gas companies, Wall Street types, those making over any convenient sum he finds useful at the time, Americans who are against higher taxes and throwing good money after bad in our bloated, inefficient bureaucracy, the Koch brothers, Rush Limbaugh--hell, if you're not on the dole, belong to a union, work in academia or work for the government, you've been chastised and criticized at one time or another for not buying into Obama's simplistic, redistributionist, socialist view of America's future.

I think your description and backup here are pretty good examples of what the article is talking about.
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#44 pcf

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:05 PM

Obama has been the guy in the middle who knocks both sides to protect some of these groups you say he picks on.

He bailed out Wall Street and the banks along with Bush. Don't you think he has the right, duty and intelligence to call them on  behavior that looks wrong to left, right, and middle, like millions or more in bonuses for bankers and Wall Streeters that screwed up?

Remember when the Tea Party was as mad about that as the left?

Obama cut taxes and proposed a lot of cuts too. Never good enough. Why? Because he's a socialist devil to too many instead of being viewed as the moderate he is in temperament and governance.

My problem with moderates is when they want to look moderate to Republicans instead of supporting moderate policies. I believe in moderation in practice more than I care about it in title.

P.S. I wasn't referring to moderates in this forum. In this case, I was referring to moderates in the political realm who tend to put Obama on the far left instead of smack dab in the middle where he really is.

#45 gohornedfrogs

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:47 PM

View PostNewfoundlandFrog, on 29 April 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Actually, if you read what I wrote, I in no way accuse you of what you say. I don't know where you got that, actually, it would seem to me to take a real will to misunderstand.

Really? Because here is what you wrote.

View PostNewfoundlandFrog, on 29 April 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

As for the last, what essay citing facts and research rather than innuendo, lies and propaganda do you suggest putting up for discussion?

You appear to be implying that "rather than the innuendo, lies and propaganda" I've put forth, what other evidence do I have? That's how I read it...they are your words. If you meant something different, then I suggest you use more precise language, professor.


View PostNewfoundlandFrog, on 29 April 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

For my part, I don't notice much problem with posts of negative facts about liberals. Obama being born in Kenya, etc. rates proper derision to my mind.
I might give you a break on the "innuendo, lies, etc." comment if not for the comment that followed...there's no other way to interpret this as you believing I don't have much of a problem with "birther" posts. The record will show that I've derided people on several occasions for "birther" type posts.

Forgive me, but when you look at those two comments you made in succession, it's very easy to conclude what I did.

Again, if that's not what you intended, I suggest you articulate your point with much more precision.



#46 NewfoundlandFrog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:47 AM

View Postgohornedfrogs, on 29 April 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Really? Because here is what you wrote.



You appear to be implying that "rather than the innuendo, lies and propaganda" I've put forth, what other evidence do I have? That's how I read it...they are your words. If you meant something different, then I suggest you use more precise language, professor.



I might give you a break on the "innuendo, lies, etc." comment if not for the comment that followed...there's no other way to interpret this as you believing I don't have much of a problem with "birther" posts. The record will show that I've derided people on several occasions for "birther" type posts.

Forgive me, but when you look at those two comments you made in succession, it's very easy to conclude what I did.

Again, if that's not what you intended, I suggest you articulate your point with much more precision.

I was simply passing on the authors' points: That factual and objective points are rare, that the opposite all too common, that sometimes we need to face facts, that gridlock is primarily the fault of extremists on one "side" who have trended measurably further more to their extreme than the extremists on the other "side", and that it is not--solely anyway--the fault of the system as a whole. Possibly you did not read the article? It's actually interesting and comes from two think tanks on opposite "sides".

To my mind, the delegitimization movement is also far more from the extreme right now (birthers, treason claims, etc.) and in the Clinton era as well (Starr) than it ever was in the Bush years when objectively anyway there was possibly more reason to delegitimize Bush. [Take a relaxing breath first here as I continue!...]That is, dems in the main  complained vociferously and loudly but in the end generally accepted and most specifically did not act against Bush v. Gore. As has often been pointed out here, dems generally supported even questionable policies of the Bush era. No gridlock, in other words, over key issues.

Given what happened during the Clinton and Obama experience, I honestly don't think that would have been the response from the right in congress given the hypothetical that Gore won that decision and had become president. The near total hollowing out of the rep center is having effects and they are not necessarily good in the opinion of some, at least. Certainly not these authors and you can add me in as well. Consider the number of times you hear: "I didn't leave the reps, they left me" compared to the reverse.
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#47 NatonWolf

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:10 AM

all you need to know. why argue?Posted Image

#48 pcf

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:24 AM

View PostNatonWolf, on 30 April 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

all you need to know. why argue?Posted Image

If you want Guantanamo closed, the solution isn't to vote against Obama.

If you want more accountable government, don't look to your right.

If you want to rein in any business, don't look to your right.

Gas prices are up from the verge of depression in 2009. We actually had higher prices under Bush.

None of the complaints about Obama on this chart would be addressed by the Republicans who would fill his place.

It is moronic to be concerned about any of those issues and think they wouldn't be worse under a Republican administration.

#49 NewfoundlandFrog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:25 AM

View PostNatonWolf, on 30 April 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

all you need to know. why argue?Posted Image
All true or at least truthy. He could not control these events.

Yet, considering the alternative, he still leads most polls, and if you truly believe that he won't be reelected you can get over 250 cents on each dollar you invest in this belief on intrade.com by holoding till Nov.

As I've mentioned before...I've got money on Romney myself at the moment as I expect the race to tighten, though I don't plan on holding to Nov.

added...

More specifically, you can easily buy about 2100 shares of Romney for ~7500 that will settle at $22,000 when he beats Obama. Good deal? There are some other plays on the for pres, but that one looks about the best to me. Shorting Obama doesn't work out to quite as high a potential gain.
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#50 RSF

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:57 AM

My gas prices have been dropping.  That mean y'all are going to give Obama credit for that?


Wait...what am I saying......
Vulgarity is like art - everybody thinks they know what it is, yet nobody can agree on what it is.


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#51 NewfoundlandFrog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:13 AM

View PostRSF, on 30 April 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

My gas prices have been dropping.  That mean y'all are going to give Obama credit for that?


Wait...what am I saying......

More than you should???

View Postoldscribe, on 29 April 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

I wish other Republicans were as aware that the president (any president) is of ALL Americans. Once early in Clinton's first term when I mentioned ``the president" to Rep. [Gary Danielson] Armey, he almost shouted ``He's not MY president!"......I have found room for disagreement with the last several oval office residents, but they have all been ``my" president as well as ``the" president.

Agreed. The notion of the illegitimacy of a dem president is at least one dem admin older than Obama. Thought it was a dangerous way of thinking then, think even more strongly it's a dangerous way of thinking now.
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#52 pcf

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:13 AM

Washington is not polarized, Republicans are polarized. I'm tired of hearing the cheap and inaccurate arguments otherwise.

They look at Guantanamo as an Obama failure to act as he said he would. He attempted to close it in a responsible way. It wasn't going to happen because of others in government. It was Obama being compromising and pragmatic instead of dictatorial.

What good does moderation and cooperation do for the moderate cooperator? No good, because the left is unhappy, the right uses it politically, and the middle is afraid to defend it for fear of not appearing moderate in the middle by defending the President's actions.

Man, I do look forward to Republicans closing Guantanamo and regulating Wall Street...

#53 pcf

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:19 AM

View PostNewfoundlandFrog, on 30 April 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:


Agreed. The notion of the illegitimacy of a dem president is at least one dem admin older than Obama. Thought it was a dangerous way of thinking then, think even more strongly it's a dangerous way of thinking now.

Why would they respect a Democratic president when they don't respect Democratic voters?

The Democratic voters are all minorities on welfare, atheists, gays, or hate America, success and freedom and don't believe in the American Dream as envisioned by Ronald Reagan.
They're only interested in class warfare and punishing the achievers.

Of course, their only mission in life is to abort children and have guilt-free sex for the wrong reasons and have it paid for by good hard working Christians.

#54 gohornedfrogs

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:45 AM

Glad to see Baghdad Bob is here to make sure Obama isn't held to the same standard he held Bush to...



#55 NewfoundlandFrog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:59 AM

View Postpcf, on 30 April 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Why would they respect a Democratic president when they don't respect Democratic voters?

The Democratic voters are all minorities on welfare, atheists, gays, or hate America, success and freedom and don't believe in the American Dream as envisioned by Ronald Reagan.
They're only interested in class warfare and punishing the achievers.

Of course, their only mission in life is to abort children and have guilt-free sex for the wrong reasons and have it paid for by good hard working Christians.

I don't think that puts the finger on the button. But it--the legitimacy question--is serious to my way of thinking.
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#56 pcf

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:21 AM

View PostNewfoundlandFrog, on 30 April 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

I don't think that puts the finger on the button. But it--the legitimacy question--is serious to my way of thinking.

Having lived in Republicanville for a long time, I'd say that's exactly the problem. In some factions of the Republican party, they see Democrats as evil traitors who they will assault at Target, put nasty notes in their mailbox, and destroy their yardsigns. They will also deny them communion at Mass.

Inclusive? They're actively excluding people who are Democrats in the real world. Why would they accept a Democrat as their president?

#57 gohornedfrogs

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:40 AM

Yeah, because we all know Democrats have never viewed Republicans as "evil" and refused to accept a Republican president.

:crazy:



#58 RSF

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:43 AM

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Vulgarity is like art - everybody thinks they know what it is, yet nobody can agree on what it is.


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#59 NewfoundlandFrog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:18 AM

View Postgohornedfrogs, on 30 April 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yeah, because we all know Democrats have never viewed Republicans as "evil" and refused to accept a Republican president.

:crazy:

Actually I disagree here. Dems on the whole have accepted the legitimacy of rep presidents to hold office--even Bush 2 where you can make a better hypothetical case than the birthers--far more so than reps have over the past couple of decades. Clinton first, and then Obama have been constantly and actively pursued for crimes--up to and including murder, treason, not being constitutionally qualified, etc. by the mainstream (Congress/Starr), or close to mainstream (birthers) far more so than Bush 2 ever was. Dems more grumbled and gnashed teeth than doing anything active. In the main they accepted the verdict of the voters and/or Supremes for 2 terms. As the article I mentioned went on to say, they then cooperated in passing the key points of Bush's agenda. Not so the reverse, we are seeing.

As the original post in this thread states:

This guy is a sociopath--going after private citizens because they support his political opponent? This is sick and twisted ... [link] ...

Barack Obama is not the President of the United States--he's President of the Democrats of the United States
.

My guess is that TC does not accept Obama as the legitimate pres of the whole USA.
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#60 pcf

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:31 AM

View Postgohornedfrogs, on 30 April 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yeah, because we all know Democrats have never viewed Republicans as "evil" and refused to accept a Republican president.

:crazy:

Not saying it was or wasn't done. I'm asking if you think it is the way to act.


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