91 replies to this topic

[TCUSA]

Is there a more cynical, power-hungry bunch on the face of the planet than America's left?

It was the Power, Stupid

[RSF]

Is there a more cynical, power-hungry bunch on the face of the planet than America's left?

yeah, but you don't want to hear about it....

[NewfoundlandFrog]

Is there a more cynical, power-hungry bunch on the face of the planet than America's left?

It was the Power, Stupid

Let's start with the first idea:

"In my dumber days, between 2001-2008, I used to wonder why the Left relentlessly hammered the war on terror (e.g., renditions, tribunals, predators, preventative detention, Patriot Act, intercepts, wiretaps, Guantanamo Bay) when these measures had not only proven quite useful in preventing another 9/11-like attack, but had been sanctioned by both the Congress and the courts."

Be specific: Which 9/11-like attack was found out in advance using a previously illegal, but now apparently "quite useful", techniques VDH lists? Name it and be specific how only these "quite useful" techniques were the means of prevention.

Once we finish the first idea, maybe then we can go on to the second.

[pcf]

Norway killer picked victims who had 'leftist' look

Not surprising. The incessant propaganda is starting to work in increasing the paranoia and stimulating violent responses from the white male target population.

This guy probably loved Breitbart, VDH, and the rest of the crew.

Hey, what's the deal with National Review getting rid of some racists?

[gohornedfrogs]

Let's start with the first idea:

"In my dumber days, between 2001-2008, I used to wonder why the Left relentlessly hammered the war on terror (e.g., renditions, tribunals, predators, preventative detention, Patriot Act, intercepts, wiretaps, Guantanamo Bay) when these measures had not only proven quite useful in preventing another 9/11-like attack, but had been sanctioned by both the Congress and the courts."

Be specific: Which 9/11-like attack was found out in advance using a previously illegal, but now apparently "quite useful", techniques VDH lists? Name it and be specific how only these "quite useful" techniques were the means of prevention.

Once we finish the first idea, maybe then we can go on to the second.

You're asking for specifics on what is probably classified info, so that's a straw man. That major attacks were thwarted has been acknowledged, possibly by the Obama administration. (And no, I don't have time to waste here posting links).

[gohornedfrogs]

Norway killer picked victims who had 'leftist' look

Not surprising. The incessant propaganda is starting to work in increasing the paranoia and stimulating violent responses from the white male target population.

This guy probably loved Breitbart, VDH, and the rest of the crew.

And you accuse others of distorting reality?

Wow. The other side of the fnfreebird coin, folks.

[pcf]

And you accuse others of distorting reality?

Wow. The other side of the fnfreebird coin, folks.

The reality is that the Norway killer, fnfreebird, and a ton of other right wing people of various intellectual incapacities are obsessed with the threat from leftists and liberals. Some of the affected are goaded into action from paranoid rantings.

Do you really think I'm worried about conservatives? If I am, it is in the sense that you worry about the elderly signing away their life savings to a huckster.

When is the last time a liberal went crazy with a gun because he feared the conservative threat?

[NewfoundlandFrog]

You're asking for specifics on what is probably classified info, so that's a straw man. That major attacks were thwarted has been acknowledged, possibly by the Obama administration. (And no, I don't have time to waste here posting links).

Possibly. On the other hand VDH's raw assertion has precisely the same backup so I assume you consider it a straw man as well, yes? That is mostly what I was responding to: VDH is just saying this. There is no possible way he knows this is the truth. It is highly doubtful given data from most public and leaked sources that it is truthful to any great extent.

Here is a study I ran across in Studies in Conflict and Terrorism a while back entitled The Plots that Failed: Intelligence Lessons Learned from Unsuccessful Terrorist Attacks Against the United States. It's probably not available to you unless you have access to a research library, but here is the abstract:

While much of the focus of terrorism research is on successful terrorist attacks, the most significant lessons for terrorism prevention may come from examination of terrorist plots and attacks that do not succeed. This article analyzes 176 terrorist plots against American targets that have been thwarted or otherwise failed during the past 25 years. It considers what kinds of intelligence and security measures are most useful in counterterrorism, and argues that the conventional wisdom about why intelligence fails—because analysts and agencies are unable to “connect the dots”—is wrong. Most plots, especially domestic terrorist plots, are not foiled through imaginative analysis, but through conventional law enforcement efforts and aggressive domestic intelligence collection that reveal to authorities just what the plotters are up to.

If you do get the article, note that almost none of the cases reported here even involve the use of "renditions, tribunals, predators, preventative detention, Patriot Act, (illegal) intercepts, (illegal) wiretaps, Guantanamo Bay" at all, let alone centrally. He does support "aggressive" intelligence collection, but documents few if any cases where the techniques VDH addresses were the linchpin for foiling the operation.

I guess I can quote this much without violating copyright...

Conclusions
...

Attacks are not foiled when a sharp analyst puts together little bits of otherwise unrelated intelligence, realizes the danger ahead, and takes it all to a decision maker whose swift action averts catastrophe. Instead, most plots are foiled because officials have very precise, tactical-level intelligence, often from human sources, on what the plotters are up to. The intelligence picture is usually much clearer than it seems to have been before the Christmas Day attempt, suggesting that terrorist attacks are not prevented because intelligence officials connect the dots, but because they collect and act on very precise warnings.

The changes being implemented by the Obama administration following the Christmas Day attempt are focused on analysis, with the goal of ensuring subtle clues are not missed and analysts are trained and ready to connect all possible dots. These changes are not likely to do much to help develop the precise intelligence that history shows is most often needed to prevent attacks.

This study also shows that the precise intelligence needed to prevent attacks is not usually developed through the use of strategic-level tactics that get much of the public's attention, such as spies who penetrate terrorist cells, enhanced interrogations of captured suspects, or covert operatives listening in on terrorist chatter overseas. More typically, plots are disrupted as a result of tips from the public, informants inside home-grown cells, and long-term surveillance of suspects.

...

[gohornedfrogs]

The reality is that the Norway killer, fnfreebird, and a ton of other right wing people of various intellectual incapacities are obsessed with the threat from leftists and liberals. Some of the affected are goaded into action from paranoid rantings.

Do you really think I'm worried about conservatives? If I am, it is in the sense that you worry about the elderly signing away their life savings to a huckster.

When is the last time a liberal went crazy with a gun because he feared the conservative threat?

So I guess we can blame atrocities in China on Obama's Propaganda?

[pcf]

So I guess we can blame atrocities in China on Obama's Propaganda?

To which atrocities are you referring?

The fact is that much of the world is in the middle or at the tail end of the shift rightward economically and socially, including China.

The left and liberalism is neither ascendant or in power. Very few countries are making a push towards bigger government involvement in ways other than outsourcing more to private companies. The so-called government takeover of healthcare in America does more to feed business to private companies than it does to rip power and money from their grubby hands.

[gohornedfrogs]

Does pcf even have a point, other than desperately trying to randomly connect a gunman in Europe to conservatives in America?

[pcf]

Does pcf even have a point, other than desperately trying to randomly connect a gunman in Europe to conservatives in America?

The anti-Islam mania is not confined to the US borders. Neither is anti-liberal and anti-left hysteria and hatred.

Fjordman was a right wing anti-Islam blogger connected with lots of US and worldwide right wing paranoids. He was the Norway killer's favorite, but they are a network.
http://gatesofvienna...e-fjordman.html

[Poison Arrow Frog]

Tiananmen square in 1989-- where the far left were killing students who were to the right of them.

Obama ordering the murder of an American citizen without due process.

Amy Bishop far left sociopath who killed3 coworkers when she was denied tenure.

[NewfoundlandFrog]

Tiananmen square in 1989-- where the far left were killing students who were to the right of them.

Obama ordering the murder of an American citizen without due process.

Amy Bishop far left sociopath who killed3 coworkers when she was denied tenure.

I don't think Amy qualifies as a terrorist. She may well be far left.

I disagree that China was ever "left" in any European/Western sense. China has believed in all-powerful, central, autocratic governments for millennia. Long before Marx etc.

Obama's drone program will come back to haunt, I predict.

[Whisky Dude]

Hmmmmmm, lets see. just off the top of my head........Obama's little Pal Bill Ayers.

[Whisky Dude]

a) Jared Lee Loughner cited the liberal bible, Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto, as one of his favorite books;

b) Loughner was intrigued by flag-burning videos;

c) Loughner, in one of his YouTube videos, said, "No! I won't trust in God"; and

d) if listing The Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books wasn't enough proof of his political inclination, one of his friends confirmed his left-wing views.


http://www.americant...eral_fanta.html

[Poison Arrow Frog]

I don't think Amy qualifies as a terrorist. She may well be far left.

I disagree that China was ever "left" in any European/Western sense. China has believed in all-powerful, central, autocratic governments for millennia. Long before Marx etc.

Obama's drone program will come back to haunt, I predict.

I view communism as being far left just as fascism is far right.True re Amy...Hey how about the lefty who targeted the IRS building with his plane?

[Whisky Dude]

P CF is starting to get a bit frustrated. He KNOWS whats coming in the next election. And it SHOWS. Pssssssssssssst,.....PCF,.....Your vote doesnt count anyway because you live in Texas. The odds of little O winning Texas are,.........well,.........NILL! LMAO! Now my vote on the other hand , coming from a swing state,......matters ALOT!

[pcf]

Tiananmen square in 1989-- where the far left were killing students who were to the right of them.

Obama ordering the murder of an American citizen without due process.

Amy Bishop far left sociopath who killed3 coworkers when she was denied tenure.

The Chinese response was from the government and not from paranoid libs or leftists. It was the response that governments usually make towards rebellions or threats, just like when Douglas McArthur routed the bonus marchers.

Obama is a president who is only liberal or leftist compared to some pretty nasty conservative characters, and he wasn't out to get conservatives with the drones.

Whoever the hell Amy Bishop is, her victims may well have been liberals.

So I ask again, which of you conservatives sit around in fear of tree huggers, pro-choicers, or supporters of socialized medicine coming to kill you because you look conservative?

[pcf]

a) Jared Lee Loughner cited the liberal bible, Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto, as one of his favorite books;

b) Loughner was intrigued by flag-burning videos;

c) Loughner, in one of his YouTube videos, said, "No! I won't trust in God"; and

d) if listing The Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books wasn't enough proof of his political inclination, one of his friends confirmed his left-wing views.


http://www.americant...eral_fanta.html

Killed a Democrat. He didn't exactly go looking for conservatives to kill.