57 replies to this topic

[Deep Purple]

TCUGuy, on 28 February 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Good lord they jacked up the prices.  $2000 for lot 3??

It's adjacent to the stadium, which makes it a premium lot.  It's priced the same as the other premium lots.

[cdsfrog]

Limp Lizard, on 29 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Compared to other private schools, our tuition is competitive to cheap, FWIW.  And it does matter what other people charge:  prices don't happen in a vacuum.

The parking lots have always been a waiting-list thing for the good lots.  I kept my Lot #1 despite increases because it was such a great spot.  I am disappointed that my Club seats do not get me a discount on parking, but so be it....I'll have to find another lot this year.  Also, this has been a Frog Club thing for a very long time, as opposed to the TCU ticket office.

As far as how it will end, like anything else they will keep raising the prices until people stop buying.  If you think it is too much or can't afford it, don't buy it.  But that is an optional entertainment expense; I don't mind paying extra for entertainers, professional athletes, etc., but do mind paying the cost of essentials like medical care and gasoline.  So as long as they keep selling the tickets and they are competitive, more power to them.

I agree with most of this except tuition prices. Don't believe what others tell you. TCU was cheap relative to other universities 15 years ago, not anymore. We have went from 15% under the private school average to 21% above it. I have posted about this numerous times as TCU is on pace to cost more than 100k annually before 2030 (early as 2025 with current total cost of 44k per year)

NAICU national private university tuition average for 2012 was $28,500. TCU for 2012 fall will be 34500, 21.05% higher. TCU is a better university than it was 15 years ago, but the rate of increase is simply too much. Hopefully the bubble will burst eventually, it already has in a few other countries.

[Deep Purple]

cdsfrog, on 29 February 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

I agree with most of this except tuition prices. Don't believe what others tell you. TCU was cheap relative to other universities 15 years ago, not anymore. We have went from 15% under the private school average to 21% above it. I have posted about this numerous times as TCU is on pace to cost more than 100k annually before 2030 (early as 2025 with current total cost of 44k per year)

And I've pointed out before the flaw in your formula.  You're not comparing TCU just to peer private universities, you're also comparing us to every flyspeck liberal arts college in the country, most of which have far cheaper tuition.  This is apples and oranges.  These institutions are not in the same student market as TCU.

Institutions that are in the same student market are: 1) national (enroll from nationwide), 2) broad, or comprehensive (offer a broad curriculum that includes  liberal arts, fine arts, sciences, technical fields, and a wide range of professional fields), 3) doctoral-research (offer the full range of degrees from the baccalaureate to the doctorate, and require faculty to do a significant amount of research).

If you restrict the comparison to actual peer institutions and don't dilute the numbers it with private liberals arts colleges, TCU is near the bottom of the price market.

[cdsfrog]

Deep Purple, on 29 February 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

And I've pointed out before the flaw in your formula.  You're not comparing TCU just to peer private universities, you're also comparing us to every flyspeck liberal arts college in the country, most of which have far cheaper tuition.  This is apples and oranges.  These institutions are not in the same student market as TCU.

Institutions that are in the same student market are: 1) national (enroll from nationwide), 2) broad, or comprehensive (offer a broad curriculum that includes  liberal arts, fine arts, sciences, technical fields, and a wide range of professional fields), 3) doctoral-research (offer the full range of degrees from the baccalaureate to the doctorate, and require faculty to do a significant amount of research).

If you restrict the comparison to actual peer institutions and don't dilute the numbers it with private liberals arts colleges, TCU is near the bottom of the price market.

TCU is not near the bottom even in that comparison. Nor does change the fact that 100k per year isnt acceptable even 15 years from now.

44k per year enrollment cost isnt at the bottom of any list besides ivy league schools. Even then they provide a lot more aid. TCU has lots of attractive characteristics:

1) Amazing student to faculty ratio
2) Great Campus
3) Fantastic Area
4) Good sports
5) Good to great departments all across the university

Low cost isn't one of them. Guess we are going to have agree to disagree on this one.

[jugbandfrog]

The fans are being asked to shoulder a good burden.  Yes we got off cheap in the past, and we are getting off cheap compared to other universities, but with the deposits, the increased prices, and then the rebranding and what that will mean for some of us who want to stay current and support the University, it seems like an awful lot all at once.  

that is all I have to say about that.

[jewstfrogit]

Compare TCU's tuition to the average of private schools in the US News Top 200.  Comparing to "all" brings in a lot of institutions that aren't comparable to TCU.  It's unfair to compare TCU tuition to the "national private school average."  There are a lot of crap private schools (for example: The College of St. Thomas Moore).

[cdsfrog]

Compare our net price and it's even worse

2009 it was 32.4k net cost for 110k+ income and above, 23.7k for income 48-75k, and 18.3k for income under 30k.

Duke:  38k for 110K, 14k for middle income, 8k for low income
Rice: 31k, 8.8k, and 6k
Tulane: 26k, 15k, 15.5k and 9.6k
Brown: 41k, 12.8k, 5.7k
Vandy: 31.5, 8.5, and 5.7
SMU: 36.4, 21.1, and 15.1



http://nces.ed.gov/c...d=228875#netprc

http://nces.ed.gov/c...d=227757#netprc

http://nces.ed.gov/c...d=198419#netprc

http://nces.ed.gov/c...&ct=2&id=217156

http://nces.ed.gov/c...d=228246#netprc

[BoydAveFrogFan]

TCU Reefer, on 28 February 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Correct.

I see a lot of freshmen cars being towed prior to game then.

[Limp Lizard]

jewstfrogit, on 29 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Compare TCU's tuition to the average of private schools in the US News Top 200.  Comparing to "all" brings in a lot of institutions that aren't comparable to TCU.  It's unfair to compare TCU tuition to the "national private school average."  There are a lot of crap private schools (for example: The College of St. Thomas Moore).

Estimates from University web sites for full-time undergraduates from our local peers:
Baylor - $44,988
SMU - varies, about $50-51 K
Tulsa - $43,079
Tulane - $43,434 (doesn't state if this includes R&B)
The problem is getting all the costs on the same-year basis, which I am too lazy to do.  Didn't include Rice ($50,171 in '11-'12, a real bargain...if you can get in) since they are ranked much higher than TCU and its peers.  In that stratosphere Vandy is $59,248, Stanford is $56, 272, Harvard is $56 - 60K, MIT $55,270...if you can get in.  Or for a top-notch prep school try the Kent School in NW Connecticut (where Seth MacFarlane went):  $50,995 for '12-'13!  Oh, and a Rolls costs more than a Yugo, too.

TCU looks competitive with their peers.  Their costs have gone up a bunch the last 20 years, too.  If  TCU is >$100K, they they will probably be, too.  The only way to cost less is stop trying to be competitive.  This isn't a for-profit operation, people.  The University charges what they need to meet costs.  Unfortunately students expect a lot more than they did 40 years ago.  As long as people expect a lot, and are willing to pay for it, costs will rise.  Or go to a state school.

[cdsfrog]

Limp Lizard, on 29 February 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Estimates from University web sites for full-time undergraduates from our local peers:
Baylor - $44,988
SMU - varies, about $50-51 K
Tulsa - $43,079
Tulane - $43,434 (doesn't state if this includes R&B)
The problem is getting all the costs on the same-year basis, which I am too lazy to do.  Didn't include Rice ($50,171 in '11-'12, a real bargain...if you can get in) since they are ranked much higher than TCU and its peers.  In that stratosphere Vandy is $59,248, Stanford is $56, 272, Harvard is $56 - 60K, MIT $55,270...if you can get in.  Or for a top-notch prep school try the Kent School in NW Connecticut (where Seth MacFarlane went):  $50,995 for '12-'13!  Oh, and a Rolls costs more than a Yugo, too.

TCU looks competitive with their peers.  Their costs have gone up a bunch the last 20 years, too.  If  TCU is >$100K, they they will probably be, too.  The only way to cost less is stop trying to be competitive.  This isn't a for-profit operation, people.  The University charges what they need to meet costs.  Unfortunately students expect a lot more than they did 40 years ago.  As long as people expect a lot, and are willing to pay for it, costs will rise.  Or go to a state school.

and the majority of those are less on net price as provided on the links above.  TCU is in competitive in general but nowhere near the bargain it was 15 years ago. That's because of the 7% average increase since 1990.

[BoydAveFrogFan]

I have parking available 450 feet from north endzone. 4 season parking spots left.

[Deep Purple]

cdsfrog, on 29 February 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

TCU is not near the bottom even in that comparison

Better recalibrate your calculator, because it certainly is.

Quote

Nor does change the fact that 100k per year isn't acceptable even 15 years from now.

As I've pointed out before, that claim unjustifiably assumes that TCU will continue raising tuition at the same uninterrupted rates for the next 15 years.  The only way that happens is if the rest of higher education costs similarly keep going up in similar fashion.  In that case, TCU will keep pace, retaining its current relative position near the bottom of the price market in its institutional peer group, just as it has done for the past 15 years.

Quote

44k  per year enrollment cost isnt at the bottom of any list besides ivy  league schools.

Here's TCU's price rank in its institutional peer group based on 2011-2012 tuition and fees -- the only college costs a student has no control over.  For fees, I used only those that apply to all students and eliminated special fees for certain majors or activities.

Duke:  $50,300
Tulane:  $43,434
Northwestern:  $41,983
Wake Forest:  $41,576
Vanderbilt:  $41,332
Emory:  $41,164
Lehigh:  $40,960
Pepperdine:  $40,752
SMU:  $39,430
Notre Dame:  $36,452
Rice:  $35,550
TCU:  $32,490
Creighton:  $31,894
Baylor:  $31,658
Marquette:  $30,462
Drake:  $29,556  

I don't see an Ivy League school on that list, yet TCU is still near the bottom.

Quote

Even then they provide a lot more aid.

No.  Some do, some don't.  Beware of unqualified generalizations like" they provide a lot more aid" and "TCU's cost isnt at the bottom of any list besides ivy  league schools."  They'll get you in trouble every time.

Quote

TCU has lots of  attractive characteristics... Low cost isn't one of them.

Relatively low cost within its institutional peer group is one of TCU's most attractive features.

[PurplePutt]

I thought this thread was about parking at football games?  Typical.

[cdsfrog]

Deep Purple, on 01 March 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Better recalibrate your calculator, because it certainly is.


As I've pointed out before, that claim unjustifiably assumes that TCU will continue raising tuition at the same uninterrupted rates for the next 15 years.  The only way that happens is if the rest of higher education costs similarly keep going up in similar fashion.  In that case, TCU will keep pace, retaining its current relative position near the bottom of the price market in its institutional peer group, just as it has done for the past 15 years.


Here's TCU's price rank in its institutional peer group based on 2011-2012 tuition and fees -- the only college costs a student has no control over.  For fees, I used only those that apply to all students and eliminated special fees for certain majors or activities.

Duke:  $50,300
Tulane:  $43,434
Northwestern:  $41,983
Wake Forest:  $41,576
Vanderbilt:  $41,332
Emory:  $41,164
Lehigh:  $40,960
Pepperdine:  $40,752
SMU:  $39,430
Notre Dame:  $36,452
Rice:  $35,550
TCU:  $32,490
Creighton:  $31,894
Baylor:  $31,658
Marquette:  $30,462
Drake:  $29,556  

I don't see an Ivy League school on that list, yet TCU is still near the bottom.


No.  Some do, some don't.  Beware of unqualified generalizations like" they provide a lot more aid" and "TCU's cost isnt at the bottom of any list besides ivy  league schools."  They'll get you in trouble every time.


Relatively low cost within its institutional peer group is one of TCU's most attractive features.

Deep you aren't dumb so I will assume you saw the net costs figures I posted above. Nearly every school you mentioned has a lower net cost than TCU.

Not to mention comparably, TCU has a worse student to faculty ratio, worse academic scores and is ranked considerably below the majority of the schools mentioned. It's nice to pretend that represents TCU, but the average ranking of those schools is in the 30s. TCU is 97th.

[Deep Purple]

cdsfrog, on 01 March 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Deep you aren't dumb so I will assume you saw the net costs figures I posted above. Nearly every school you mentioned has a lower net cost than TCU.

Actually, we're around the middle of the pack.

Wake Forest:  $29,885
Northwestern:  $27,919
SMU:  $27,729
Marquette:  $27,714
Tulane:  $26,153
Baylor:  $26,258
TCU:  $25,988
Lehigh:  $25,423
Creighton:  $24,947
Emory:  $24,831
Notre Dame:  $23,445
Drake:  $23,289
Pepperdine:  $22,529
Duke:  $20,845
Vanderbilt:  $18,775
Rice:  $17,823

In any case, high net cost is an argument that financial aid is too low, not that price is too high.  Schools charging less than TCU still have a higher net cost because of scanty financial aid, despite their lower pricing.

The fact that TCU is midstream on net cost despite having more meager financial aid assets suggest that TCU's absolute cost is very low indeed.  

Quote

Not to mention comparably, TCU has a worse student to faculty ratio

Rice:  6:1
Emory:  7:1
Northwestern:  7:1
Duke:  8:1
Vanderbilt:  8:1
Lehigh:  10:1
Creighton: 11:1
Tulane:  11:1
Wake Forest:  11:1
Notre Dame:  12:1
SMU:  12:1
TCU:  13:1
Drake:  13:1
Pepperdine:  13:1
Baylor:  14:1
Marquette:  15:1

Any ratio in the 10-15 to 1 range is considered very good.  Lower than 10 is elite.  Two-thirds of the schools on this list are in the 10-15 range and, again, TCU is hovering around the middle of that pack.

Quote

worse academic scores and is ranked considerably below the majority of  the schools mentioned.  It's nice to pretend that represents TCU, but the  average ranking of those schools is in the 30s. TCU is 97th.

There are 2,200 four-year colleges and universities in America.  The top 100 represent the top 5 percent.  Arguing about academic differences among this group is like arguing whether Newton or Mozart was a greater genius.

[cdsfrog]

Deep Purple, on 01 March 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Actually, we're around the middle of the pack.

Wake Forest:  $29,885
Northwestern:  $27,919
SMU:  $27,729
Marquette:  $27,714
Tulane:  $26,153
Baylor:  $26,258
TCU:  $25,988
Lehigh:  $25,423
Creighton:  $24,947
Emory:  $24,831
Notre Dame:  $23,445
Drake:  $23,289
Pepperdine:  $22,529
Duke:  $20,845
Vanderbilt:  $18,775
Rice:  $17,823

In any case, high net cost is an argument that financial aid is too low, not that price is too high.  Schools charging less than TCU still have a higher net cost because of scanty financial aid, despite their lower pricing.

The fact that TCU is midstream on net cost despite having more meager financial aid assets suggest that TCU's absolute cost is very low indeed.  


Rice:  6:1
Emory:  7:1
Northwestern:  7:1
Duke:  8:1
Vanderbilt:  8:1
Lehigh:  10:1
Creighton: 11:1
Tulane:  11:1
Wake Forest:  11:1
Notre Dame:  12:1
SMU:  12:1
TCU:  13:1
Drake:  13:1
Pepperdine:  13:1
Baylor:  14:1
Marquette:  15:1

Any ratio in the 10-15 to 1 range is considered very good.  Lower than 10 is elite.  Two-thirds of the schools on this list are in the 10-15 range and, again, TCU is hovering around the middle of that pack.


There are 2,200 four-year colleges and universities in America.  The top 100 represent the top 5 percent.  Arguing about academic differences among this group is like arguing whether Newton or Mozart was a greater genius.

Maybe to you. Not sure where you got the figure for TCU and the other schools. I provided a link, feel free to do  so yourself. Mine shows us much lower for every single income group except 110k+

We aren't going to agree on this. 5k to 20k enrollment, using our 25% percentile sat/act scores as a bottom, screening only private schools I found 42 matches. We were in the highest quarter net cost wise. At work and all the stats are at home. I have Tulane/ SMU/ Duke/ Brown and others up a few posts with drastically different numbers.

[Deep Purple]

cdsfrog, on 01 March 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Maybe to you. Not sure where you got the figure for TCU and the other schools. I provided a link, feel free to do  so yourself. Mine shows us much lower for every single income group except 110k+

We aren't going to agree on this.

I got the net cost figures from the links you provided.  Instead of looking across a spectrum of income brackets, as you did, I simply looked at average net cost as the most representative comparison.

I got the faculty-to-student ratios from US News.

[cdsfrog]

net price incorporate non aided funds i guess? Net price average is nearly identical to 110k+ cost for Tulane.

Either way, competitive or not TCU went from very affordable to 21% above the average in 13 years. Definitely not one of the lowest as you claimed but better than one of the worst like SMU. I shudder to think what the cost will be in 15 years. For 22 years we have averaged more than a 7% increase.

All schools are raising at such alarming rate not just TCU but that is the one I concern myself with the most.